Game of Thrones season 8 (spoilers)

[Bannanachair]

Episode 1 sucked, but episode 2 was great. What are your thoughts on the new season so far? Predictions?

[Duck14]

Why do you think episode 1 sucked?

I did prefer episode 2 as you seem to but the first wasn’t terrible.

[Bannanachair]

Episode 1 just felt like more of the same from seasons 5, 6 and 7 - bland characterization, a plot moving forward in ways that don't really make sense for the characters, etc.

Episode 2 was probably the best episode since at least season 4.

[Baise-moi]

Episode 1 read more like a comedy to me than anything. It was unnatural. Episode 2 had a similar feel but it was definitely an improvement.

[Bannanachair]

There were parts of episode 2 which, upon rewatching, were not that great, but most of those were tying up loose ends from episode 1. After episode 2 was doing its own thing I found that it was a great episode, with just one exception: I did not want to see the Arya/Gendry sex scene. The best description I saw for it is "it's like walking in on your little sister".

[Bannanachair]

R.I.P.

"Dolorous" Edd Tollett
Lyanna Mormont
Beric Dondarrion
Theon Greyjoy
Jorah Mormont
Melisandre
Countless redshirts

[Bannanachair]

The Night King's death was horribly underwhelming, but other than that it was a pretty solid battle episode. There was literally no strategy employed (hold the Dothraki in reserve and bring them around to the flank or rear of the undead army in a classic hammer-and-anvil strategy, you morons! Don't send them in first!), but that's par for the course for basically all fantasy television. I've heard that The Last Kingdom is better for that, but that's it.

[Bannanachair]

Upon further thought it's solid compared to seasons 5, 6 and 7. There's a bunch of things wrong with the episode that I'm too tired to bitch about now.

[Baise-moi]

I agree with you on most points, especially the Night King's death being anticlimactic. I thought not enough people died for the hyped up "Battle of the Living and the Dead" that has been alluded to since the very beginning of the first episode. It's horribly coincidental and slightly disappointing that so many of our beloved characters ended up living. Especially Bran. The fuck does he have left to do? I thought for sure that was the end of the him, and I also thought Brienne wouldn't make it through. They both survived despite being my top picks for execution.

I have to admit, I loved the scene between Tyrion and Sansa, where they both pull out the dragonglass daggers, but its impact was lost considering they both survived seemingly without so much as a scratch. Also, still have no idea if Rhaegal died or not. And what the fuck was with the end. They could've left it at Drogon curling around Daenerys. They could've left it at the Night King dying. But no. Instead, Melisandre walks out, turns old, and falls over and dies. Roll credits. Like, why? It wasn't even done in a cinematically good way.

That being said the episode did great in keeping me on my toes and making me think the living were fucked. It was a good episode, but there were parts of it which I did not enjoy.

And no one will ever convince me that Grey Worm not dying was good writing or even possible.

[Bannanachair]

I think Melisandre died because she was one of the white walkers and so when the Night King died she had to. It's the only thing that makes sense given the ending.

The biggest issue with the episode was its wasted opportunity. There were so many things that they could have done without taking up any extra run-time that they just didn't. Have Sam and Edd fight against a zombie Pyp and Grenn, or Sam against a zombie Edd. Have Bran do something of importance. Kill off Gendry and see Arya's reaction to the man that she loves dying (which I thought they were going for last episode anyway).

Grey Worm should have died. Bran should have died. Bran could have been written out after season 2 without effecting the storyline at all, come to think of it - name one thing that he did after season 2 that effected another major character's storyline in a notable way that couldn't have been done by someone else.

[Bannanachair]

The episode has no rewatch value, and the more I think about it the worse it is. It's like if at the end of Harry Potter book 6 Ginny killed Voldemort with a sneak attack and then book 7 was about Harry trying to beat Slytherin in a game of quidditch.

[Baise-moi]

I've seen the leaks for next episode, which comes out in 14 minutes. I will definitely, definitely have some sort of comment on this one.

[Bannanachair]

It’s maybe ten minutes in and already stupid

[Bannanachair]

R+L=J seems to be everything I thought it would be - a dumb distraction that adds nothing to the plot. I sincerely hope that GRRM doesn’t go that route in the books (hell, keep Jon dead in the books).

[Bannanachair]

Euron killed Rhaegal minutes after Rhaegal survived the Night’s King. It would have been thematically better for Rhaegal to have been killed by Viserion, and would not have imacted the plot as well.

[Bannanachair]

Varys just gave a talk about how supreme executive power is derived from a mandate of the masses, not some farsical aquatic ceremony. Just with more penis jokes and intended to sound less comedic.

[Bannanachair]

Jaime just left Brienne for Cersei for some fucking reason.

[Bannanachair]

That episode was poorly written garbage. The worst part is that, even though it was technically better writing than episode 3 (which will go down as one of the worst episodes of any television show ever), I liked it less because I don't care about the conflict. The Cersei-Qyburn-Mountain-Euron alliance was always a shitty villain, whereas the Others were, at least initially, interesting enough villains for me to have some emotional attachment to their fall.

[Baise-moi]

I actually had the opposite opinion; however I agree about Rhaegal. I literally said the same exact thing to my friend when we were discussing the episode after watching. It would've been more appropriate for Rhaegal to have just died to Viserion than nonsensically being shot down by godly-accurate scorpion bolts. And Euron ambushing them in general made little sense; how do you miss a big fleet like that?

That being said I found the episode's writing, aside from that part, to be the best so far. I wish someone more major than Missandei died, though. But I am enjoying Daenerys' character progression; it makes sense and has been built up/clued for a while now. I like that they aren't just making her some righteous queen but instead having her go the darker Targaryen route. I think she needs to die for a satisfying ending - I believe Jon will live. I predict that if she does die, it'll be Tyrion who does it, and that Jaime is going to either not go back to Cersei after all or have a change of heart. In both scenarios I think he will slay her. I get the vibe that he could kill Daenerys instead, but I doubt it.

I like the idea of Jaime going back to Cersei; it makes perfect narrative sense with his character so far, but I want him to change his mind on the way. I don't think it'd be good writing for him to actually, permanently go back.

Overall I found the episode really solid and most consistent with what Game of Thrones has been so far. However it has its obvious glaring flaws (why do we still care about Gendry).

[Duck14]

I’m going to disagree as well. I genuinely enjoyed this episode and the episode 3. Sure, there were flaws but they weren’t bad enough to make these episodes garbage. The writing has slid a bit from the shows hey day but it doesn’t necessarily make it garbage. I just think we hold Thrones to a higher standard than most shows. And Tim, I genuinely envy you if you think episode 3 will go down “as one of the worst episodes of any television show ever.” It wasn’t as brilliant as it could have been but, trust me, there’s plenty worst than that.

Anyway, this weeks episode. Obviously focused on Dany’s slip. I think she rather than Cersei is the Endgame villain. She’s embracing her mad queen side because she’s lost so much doing the righteous queen stuff. She lost her armies, two dragons, Miss Andy, and her sweet J-bear. That’s a lot of loss. Varys will probably turn on her. Tyrion will wait a little longer. Jon won’t help her burn innocents. All the pieces are falling into place for the Mad Queen and I’m enjoying watching that. I don’t see her surviving the series but it will provide some more thrilling moments, I’m sure of that.

While I agree that Rhagael dying would have been more interesting last week I did like how suddenly they offed him here. Even if it wasn’t entirely logical.

Jaime leaving Brienne for Cersei isn’t exactly nonsensical though. This is subtext, it’s what Game of Thrones is built on. People don’t say what they mean. He’s going to stop Cersei, one way or another, but considers it a suicide mission. He’s done bad things for Cersei, and he really has and he won’t be redeemed until he removes himself of her influence. They came into the world together, I see them leaving together as well. And his speech to Brienne, while a little harsh, is him admitting that he isn’t yet redeemed. Of course, I could be wrong, maybe they’re throwing years of character development down the drain but I don’t think so.

And god, it’s weird watching with Theon and Jorah gone. We talk a lot about characters being pointless or needing to be killed off. But I think any writer that does that is simply irresponsible. The issue with the Long Night isn’t that it didn’t kill off enough characters, it’s that it had characters in situations where they probably should have died.

My main issue with this series is the rushed nature of it. Six episodes doesn’t quite feel like enough and honestly I want more Thrones. I do enjoy these characters a lot.

Also, Jon not saying a proper goodbye to Ghost is probably my biggest gripe. The runts survived.

[Baise-moi]

That episode was terrible.

I gave every episode this season a chance, but this is irredeemable.

[Bannanachair]

I haven't seen it. I take it that that was the right thing to do?

[Bannanachair]

I caught a rerun of it. The only good part of the episode was Arya's storyline, which is weird for me to say, because I think that the show's butchered her storyline for the past several years. Aside from that, it was horrible and every character acted weird.

Dany hasn't had consistent characterisation since she conquered Meereen, so she can't be acting out-of-character if there is no possibility for acting in-character. That said, she acted especially out-of-character this episode.

Varys died like a fucking wimp. His character was butchered. He cuts out the tongues of children and egged on the Mad King's insanity. He doesn't give a shit about the people of the realm, or if he does, he's severely delusional about it. I don't even think his monologue to Kevan at the end of book 5 was quite an accurate explanation of his motives, and I don't even think that the Blackfyre theories are quite it - I think that there's still more to it. Either way, Varys dying like that was dumb.

Jon was massively out of character to just stand by while Varys burned. Didn't he mercy-kill "Mance" way back in season 5? Plus, he should have been way more against the sack of King's Landing than he was.

Jaime was done wrong. Everything about him is wrong. He "never cared" about the millions of King's Landing inhabitants? Then why the fuck did he kill Aerys? And why does he still love Cersei after everything she's done?

Euron should have been written out of the show entirely. He contributed nothing that couldn't have been contributed by other people. The Night's King or Viserion should have killed Rhaegal. Jaqen H'ghar or another faceless man could have killed Balon Greyjoy (like in the books), or he could have been killed by a strong gust of wind or by old age like Hoster Tully or Maester Aemon. His fight with Jaime contributed nothing but filler, and instead of Euron Cersei could have been fucking Lancel or Osmund Kettleblack or Moon Boy for all I know.

I don't care about Cleganebowl. It's an unsatisfying end to Sandor's story arc.

Arya was somewhat decent - they made her no longer an invincible superhero and used her to showcase the horrors of war, which is what her character was originally designed for. She turned down vengeance and tried to escape and tried to help people. She finally seemed like Arya Stark again, and if I were to bet what she'd be doing next episode, it's going back to Gendry and maybe picking up Hot Pie along the way. Her character is one that wants acceptance ("The lone wolf dies and the pack survives" is basically her personal motto) and it's idiotic that she turned down a chance to have a permanent relationship with Gendry. I just think that this character development should have come midway through season 6 when she broke free of the Faceless Men brainwashing instead of right now, but better late than never.

Oh yeah, Qyburn's death was also a fitting end. Frankenstein being tormented and killed by his monster makes perfect sense.

[Baise-moi]

Arya, Daenerys, Jon, every single one of the Dothraki and Unsullied (seriously, how are there even any left? I thought we watched the Dothraki get utterly annihilated two episodes ago), and Drogon all had massive plot armor. And of course the horse at the end of the episode.

I hated that they made it a slaughterfest after hyping it up to be a fairly equal fight. Why were the Lannister men and Golden Company fodder to literally everybody? Even the Stark men. I thought the Lannister army was well-respected. And why were half of Cersei's forces positioned outside the walls? Forcing the enemy to besiege would have been the logical move. Not even just logical - it should be a no-brainer.

Arya survived way too much, quite illogically. Daenerys and Drogon inexplicably are able to obliterate the entire Iron Fleet (which was much larger than the force Euron attacked her with before, killing her dragon and forcing her to retreat) without a problem, as well as dodge literally every scorpion bolt sent their way. Apparently the accuracy used to hit Rhaegal is nonexistent now. I did enjoy the fight with Euron, if only to get rid of him. It wasn't that bad to me and was somewhat satisfying. What wasn't satisfying was the two biggest deaths of the episode; the scene was great, but Jaime should've killed Cersei in his final moments. It wouldn't have been that hard. Instead, though, he ends up right where he started, and ignores all of the character development he's gotten thus far.

This quote pretty much sums up how I feel:
"In S1E1, Jaime Lannister pushes Bran Stark out of a window. This is subtle foreshadowing by David Benioff and Dan Weiss for S8E5, where eight seasons of Jaime's character development are similarly thrown out the window."

Visually the episode was stunning. Some scenes were pretty good. I enjoyed Cersei's attempted escape, and I enjoyed Cleganebowl a lot. Might be the one thing I found better than I was expecting. I also sort of enjoyed Varys dying, which I had a feeling might happen, and it didn't stretch the bounds of realism for me. But the plot armor, butchering of the deaths of two of the most well-developed characters (seriously, they're killed by a collapsing building...), and lack of logic in the battle just get to me so much and it ruins the episode for me.

I spoiled the leaked ending for myself so that I can be disappointed in advance next week. I don't even care anymore; seeing how they ruined Jaime's character and death scene (which, again, wasn't even that bad, but the fact that he dies with Cersei and ignores all of his character development up to that point is endlessly infuriating), as a personal favorite of mine, is enough to convince me they'll ruin other things as well. Jaime isn't the only one who was done dirty, but I think they did him the most disservice to his character.

And I never thought I'd say this, but Cersei and even Aerys are officially better, kinder rulers than Daenerys.

[Bannanachair]

Oh yeah, Arya totally has plot armour, but at least her overarching character arc seems to be going in the right direction so far. And yeah, Cersei is a better ruler than Dany, but I think Aerys is about equal - the only reason that Aerys didn't slaughter all of King's Landing with Wildfire is that Jaime stabbed him in the back, slit his throat and then killed four leading members of the alchemist's guild for good measure.