|
|
Post by Death on Jun 7, 2017 5:08:36 GMT -4
shit i meant david cameron
|
|
|
|
Post by Kynikos on Jun 7, 2017 21:59:55 GMT -4
Prussia historically is Germany I guess, but that doesn't mean Germany is entitled to the land that Prussia once owned. Besides, fairly certain that land was slavic before it was ever germanic/Prussian. Besides, if we reverted borders back to what countries had way back when, the borders of Europe would be crazy. Instead it was decided that letting Stalin have a field day with the borders of eastern Europe and being generally terrible at drawing maps was the better option. Germany does not have ANY claim to that land, and if their only ground is that Prussia (which I meant was a different state than Germany by the way, though it technically was an integral part) once had it, then such an archaic statement is ridiculous and invalid. The Allies had the right to do whatever they wanted to Germany, and that included breaking it apart permanently if they so wished. They didn't, but they could have. One of the terms of reunification of east and west was that they would rescind all former claims to any of the land that was given up, and that was what they agreed to. "Prussia", as I said earlier, wasn't even originally German. At least, not the land itself. At any rate I think they got what they deserved, or actually got off way too easy after all they did. Then again, the USSR arguably did worse... But the victors of war are almost never punished, so they didn't get hit quite as hard as Germany did for losing the war. N. Ireland was originally Irish, and Scotland was originally Pict. Things changed. A more convincing claim to the illegitimacy of Germany holding Prussia is the dying out of the monarchy more then anything else. Paper treaties last a lot less longer then anyone wants. punitively destroying germany probably wouldn't have accomplished anything in an ideal world with no outside competition. germany has a super, super long history of reuniting and leaving them on the border of quasi-fascist states (assuming USSR was dead in the water) and france would have probably lead to a war of some scale anyway. not sure what you're talking about for soviet punishments (?), soviets looked really strong coming out of ww2 and nothing the allies could do seemed to touch them. eventually us resources and the fact that their leaders sucked less then the soviets finished the cold war, not really anything punitive |
|
|
|
Post by Baise-moi on Jun 9, 2017 0:07:50 GMT -4
Just about anything else I've said is a more convincing argument as to why Germany doesn't have any right to Prussia, which isn't even within their legal borders as of right now.
And that's exactly what I was saying. Logically, with how fucking evil Stalin was, the USSR deserved punishment almost as much as Germany (especially since they were technically allied with Germany before, or at least had a non-aggression pact and were planning to divide Europe between the two of them), but it was literally impossible with the Soviets being not only victorious, but strong as hell.
Germany could have been broken up permanently, and never allowed to reunite. It's possible, though you're right in saying that they have a history of reuniting. That's 100% true. I don't know how long it would have lasted, but I suppose it would depend on the tenacity of the allies and their lenience in regards to the post-war punishments.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 4:12:34 GMT -4
Prussia historically is Germany I guess, but that doesn't mean Germany is entitled to the land that Prussia once owned. Besides, fairly certain that land was slavic before it was ever germanic/Prussian. Besides, if we reverted borders back to what countries had way back when, the borders of Europe would be crazy. Instead it was decided that letting Stalin have a field day with the borders of eastern Europe and being generally terrible at drawing maps was the better option. Germany does not have ANY claim to that land, and if their only ground is that Prussia (which I meant was a different state than Germany by the way, though it technically was an integral part) once had it, then such an archaic statement is ridiculous and invalid. The Allies had the right to do whatever they wanted to Germany, and that included breaking it apart permanently if they so wished. They didn't, but they could have. One of the terms of reunification of east and west was that they would rescind all former claims to any of the land that was given up, and that was what they agreed to. "Prussia", as I said earlier, wasn't even originally German. At least, not the land itself. At any rate I think they got what they deserved, or actually got off way too easy after all they did. Then again, the USSR arguably did worse... But the victors of war are almost never punished, so they didn't get hit quite as hard as Germany did for losing the war. Stalin was fucking crazy, Hitler was fucking crazy and stupid, and for all the stuff he did for his country- Winston Churchill was kind of an asshole too and so was Roosevelt if you actually look into it. Most people in power have negative traits, and a lot of them sometimes don't see things like the people would. An example of this would be Catherine the Great- arguably one of the best world leaders, yet still fucked over Serfs by allowing their masters to 'look after their interests'. She also had no qualms about completely erasing Poland from existence. So we can't really say who was worse than who- we can have our opinions on it (I think Hitler was fucking horrible, and Stalin was too), but we cannot say entirely for definite that country X was in the right or country X was in the wrong. People are people, and people are horrible. However, to imply that no country was in the wrong in WWII is a silly. The Nazi's set out to conquer the world and exterminate a race of people, a people who were simple scapegoats, and had done nothing against the Germans, for that matter. Their actions led to world war, and thus, to the deaths of millions upon millions of people. I simply cannot see a situation where Germany can be painted into any sort of grey area. Russia, perhaps, if you consider retribution and revenge a worthy excuse for their actions against the Germans But Germany was the aggressor, the attacker. They brought everything upon themselves, and were punished in turn. Is there an argument to be made that getting screwed by the treaty the end of WWI was part of what led to Germans to the point of desiring revenge? Most certainly, but they accomplished that revenge by fucking up the whole world for about 6 years |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 4:15:01 GMT -4
If we're going to be naming terrible leaders that list would be way too long. Here's just a small handful from the 20th century Hitler Stalin Mao Franco Mussolini Hirohito Kim Il Sung Ho Chi Min Roosevelt (social security, Japanese internment camps) Churchill (look up his views on India and Ghandi; he wasn't just in favour of Britain keeping India but he also thought that using violence on nonviolent protestors was the way to go) Castro Nixon Lenin That's just off the top of my head Ivan the Terrible Vlad the Impaler Kim Jong Un Kim Jong Il George Washington was kind of an asshole Abraham Lincoln was pretty good- still was slightly racist though, but that was mostly because he was a product of the time GEORGE W BUSH - The king of stupidity, and arguably more stupid than Hitler Donald Trump- Self explanatory Hillary Clinton- Also self explanatory David Cameron Teresa May Every Politician in Northern Ireland Hirohito King Henry the Eight is a good example of English stupidity That one African President who declared himself king and spent half of his country's budget on his coronation Honestly, if you gave me enough time I could go on an on People too often forget Leopold II |
|
|
|
Post by Death on Jun 9, 2017 4:42:50 GMT -4
Stalin was fucking crazy, Hitler was fucking crazy and stupid, and for all the stuff he did for his country- Winston Churchill was kind of an asshole too and so was Roosevelt if you actually look into it. Most people in power have negative traits, and a lot of them sometimes don't see things like the people would. An example of this would be Catherine the Great- arguably one of the best world leaders, yet still fucked over Serfs by allowing their masters to 'look after their interests'. She also had no qualms about completely erasing Poland from existence. So we can't really say who was worse than who- we can have our opinions on it (I think Hitler was fucking horrible, and Stalin was too), but we cannot say entirely for definite that country X was in the right or country X was in the wrong. People are people, and people are horrible. However, to imply that no country was in the wrong in WWII is a silly. The Nazi's set out to conquer the world and exterminate a race of people, a people who were simple scapegoats, and had done nothing against the Germans, for that matter. Their actions led to world war, and thus, to the deaths of millions upon millions of people. I simply cannot see a situation where Germany can be painted into any sort of grey area. Russia, perhaps, if you consider retribution and revenge a worthy excuse for their actions against the Germans But Germany was the aggressor, the attacker. They brought everything upon themselves, and were punished in turn. Is there an argument to be made that getting screwed by the treaty the end of WWI was part of what led to Germans to the point of desiring revenge? Most certainly, but they accomplished that revenge by fucking up the whole world for about 6 years Yes, certainly. The only 'nice' German General I can think of is Erwin Rommel- but even then he's still a hotly debated topic on whether or not he actually sympathised with the Nazi cause. Though it can be said that the Allies did want to put him into power after WW2 because he was reasonable and a competent ruler in my eyes. There were good and bad on both sides- Schindler is an example of good in Germany. But generally there was a lot more bad than good. Speaking of which, would anyone like to take part in a Call of Cthulhu campaign based in Bulgaria near the end of the Second World War? I think it'd be quite interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by Bannanachair on Jun 9, 2017 8:02:02 GMT -4
Nobody is denying that Germany was terrible during WWII; everyone did terrible things during WWII and Germany did the worst that there is then. However, America, Japan, the USSR and Italy all also did some really shitty things during the war.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 12:14:39 GMT -4
Nobody is denying that Germany was terrible during WWII; everyone did terrible things during WWII and Germany did the worst that there is then. However, America, Japan, the USSR and Italy all also did some really shitty things during the war. Obviously; war is hell. Any major combatant is going to do their fair share of horrible things, but Germany caused atrocities and then some. |
|
